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• 7/29/2015

The Nissan Skyline R34

It's been a while since we have reorganised the articles about the Nissan Skyline R34. I'd like to change them again but thought to get some input from the community first.

Whilst I was taking pictures of the customisation parts in Underground 2, I have noticed that we did something wrong - there was never a 2000 MY R34 in the NFS series. On the pictures below, you can clearly see V-Spec badges:


The screenshots are from Underground 2 and Carbon. Both games refer to the cars as 1999 models (the years are always mentioned after you've unlocked a car). The car from the original Underground and Most Wanted '12 (see here) are also 1999 models although I'm not sure whether they are the V-Spec I or base model. However, I also believe that the differentiation between these models is completely trivial, considering both cars aren't all that different in the first place. Why make things more complicated when they're already fine?

Why is that?
The V-Spec was basically a track-oriented version of an already track-oriented car. You could have them with an electronic limited-slip differential coupled with a more advanced 'ATTESA' 4WD system, plus a less forgiving chassis and some spoilers. Is that really enough to justify another car article for an arcade-oriented racing game series? If so, would you also include the 'SE' trim level name for the Nissan 240SX (S13) page? Or rename the Toyota Supra as 'Toyota Supra Turbo', even though it is perfectly fine as it is? There's no reason we should treat the R34 Skyline differently.

What will be changed?
Following the BMW M3 article names, I suggest including every single R34 article in a new page called Nissan Skyline GT-R (R34). All other generations would also have their internal codes included in brackets:

Is there something we can learn from this?
Aside from learning a few more facts about the V-Spec Skyline GT-R, which is quite rare in real life, we must remember not to judge a car based on its external appearance alone. Even though some games had several the R34 with clear indicator lights, they were still licensed as 1999 models (the 2000 models received such changes). That means, we should also look at how the car is called in the game, check the model years and so on. In other words, we should identify cars under more than just one criteria.

Are there more articles with this problem?
A few articles maybe, but I'll let you know if they do require some changes.

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• 7/29/2015

I don't want to change them, I've always seen a different car as a reason for an article about a different car. There are other cars that have had trivial cosmetic alterations to them, but still have a full article such as the Z06 CLE.

The badging for the cars ingame has never been 100% fool proof, I'll give the Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX as an example, and that the Need for Speed page lists the GT-R as being fitted with a 3.0L engine.

The artists that make these 3D models typically spend at least 30 hours working on them using CAD data. Data provided by manufacturers that would typically hand the data over for the car that's licenced.

It can become difficult to tell who is right when badging mis-represents a car, but many cars between games share a single texture file that has their badging on it. Sometimes a car could be tossed around different artists and some could think they need to apply all the badges to a car that they may not realise isn't the car the original artist is referencing. It could also be undone in the same manner by some working on the UI.

We've also been through this before with the Skyline, and it stemmed from offering as much information about a car for petrol heads.

I agree with standardising the way in which we highlight different model articles, but I can't agree with limiting the amount of information given about the various cars in the series. The articles were also originally split up based on visual differences in their stock models, with the Toyota Supra being based on their performance information per game - User:LeMansRacer/Sandbox44.

• 7/29/2015

The Supra was featured as the naturally aspirated model in the NFS series. The SZ-R you were referring to is a JDM model which means it is RHD. All NFS games have featured the Supra in LHD configuration and used the performance specifications of the American equivalent of the RZ, the Supra Turbo. The newer Supra body from Most Wanted shows this with the addition of the 'Turbo' badge.

But let's talk about the Skyline again. Whilst checking that old blog post I've noticed that some things were actually wrong. After doing some research on this for more than a hour noticed a few subtle differences in the front design: Compared to the V-Spec model, the regular GT-R has a smaller front lip and side splitters. Compare the picture I've linked with the one below and you'll see larger side splitters or whatever they're called and additional openings in the middle of the front lip:


After looking at both pictures, you can clearly see that the V-Spec from Pro Street lacks the body parts of the actual car. It looks more similar to the standard model. Let's not forget that this body was also used by other NFS games:


Also, when looking at the rear, the V-Spec has a carbon fiber air diffuser which the standard model doesn't have.

From what we can see, it's clear that the Nissan Skyline GT-R R34 was, in terms of appearance, the standard 1999 model in most NFS games and probably intended to be that way. Like you've said before, things probably got mixed up after some artists decided to slap as many relevant badges to the body as possible. The V-Spec badges were never really highlighted by any NFS game until the Shift series, although virtually every game has referred to the Skyline as the 1999 model. With this, I see no reason why we shouldn't change the articles (I too didn't feel like changing everything again), although we could include the V-Spec name if you think it is important. That said, I wouldn't change the V-Spec II article- it's the only model which truly shows the changes from the V-Spec.

• 7/29/2015

The 1999 model also has orange front indicators, while the 2000 model has white front indicators. I went through this over 2 years ago.

I can only find the 2000 brochure that I referred to back then. I had a 1999 brochure pdf too, but for whatever reason, the website I got them from originally no longer links to it.

That picture of the real-life R34 is fitted with an aftermarket front bumper.

• 7/30/2015

I was genuinely confused after you posted that picture but now I understand - the side inlets from my picture are from the Nismo Z-tune, although the rest is still stock: if you look at the black front lip of the standard GT-R, you don't see the air openings on the middle. You can clearly see the difference on page 27 of the brochure you've provided. This exact feature cannot be seen on any game appearance of the Nissan Skyline GT-R R34 (2000) and Nissan Skyline GT-R R34 V-Spec I. The V-Spec II was the only car to have that right.

The GT-R from the Underground series had white indicator lights, yes, but was branded as the 1999 model and is still a 2000 model on our articles. Based on how we currently view the Underground GT-Rs, shouldn't we also remove the V-Spec suffix from the article name by that logic, since it merely sports the V-Spec badge (the Underground versions do that as well) and has the wrong front lip? That's why strongly believe that we shouldn't conclude that there were more than just one model as all have inaccuracies.

• 7/30/2015

CMAN122 wrote: That's why strongly believe that we shouldn't conclude that there were more than just one model as all have inaccuracies.

Wait, where are you going with this? You're making it sound like it's already fine as it is.

What I know from researching the R34 is;

  • The '99 GT-R has no middle trio hole in the front splitter and orange front bumper lights.
  • The '99 GT-R V-Spec I has the middle trio hole in the front splitter and orange front bumper lights.
  • The '00 GT-R has no middle trio hole in the front splitter and white front bumper lights.
  • The '00 GT-R V-Spec II has the middle trio hole in the front splitter and white front bumper lights. There is no '00 V-Spec I.

I can see there may be a few issues with the articles as they stand, in terms of badging and in-game representation, as there may be a few inaccuracies on my part with Undercover and ProStreet - I guess I was looking at those games at the time.

The '99 GTR is shown in Carbon as being a "Nissan Skyline GT-R" in the menu, is missing the front trio splitter, and has a V-Spec badge. Nitro is hard to tell, but I went with the trailer and I couldn't really see the trio splitter.

The '99 GT-R V-Spec is shown in the Shift series as being a "Nissan Skyline GT-R" in the menu, but has the trio splitter and orange lights. Its appearance in ProStreet and Undercover lacks the "V-Spec" menu title and the trio splitter, so it'll have to move to the '99 GTR article. Its appearance in High Stakes and World lists it as a "V-Spec" in the menu, but there may be too little texture detail to show the trio splitter in High Stakes, and in World it is missing its trio splitter.

The '00 GTR appears in the Underground series with "Nissan Skyline GT-R" as a garage UI title, and in the post race board as "Skyline". It is sporting the V-Spec badge, but is missing the trio splitter.

The '00 GTR V-Spec II appears in Most Wanted (2012) as it is sporting the trio splitter and the white front lights.

...and the other is a NISMO Z-Tune's because it says in the menu and across its radiator.

I think keeping them separate is the best way of keeping tabs on their inaccuracies. Some have more saying it's appearing as a GT-R than those saying it's appearing as a V-Spec. This isn't easy, but this is't the only inaccurate car; what with the GSX in ProStreet having GS-T performance, but listed just as an Eclipse.

• 7/30/2015

So, what you're basically saying is we should fit the article names to their respective UI names. But what I'm confused about is why you would keep the NFS World GT-R in the V-Spec article when it doesn't have its trio splitter? The GT-R in Underground has its year in the title when you unlock it. I've checked the years of some other cars of Underground and they were all accurate. With that example's logic, the GT-R should be the '99 model despite having clear indicator lights, because the GT-R in World is called the V-Spec despite having no trio splitter. I'm pretty sure the GT-R in Underground 2 is also called the 1999 model somewhere in the game, since the Prima Official Game Guide and most GameFAQ guides have that as well. I'll look for more proof this afternoon.

• 7/30/2015

I'm not sure. I've always wanted to get the exact car that is being portrayed. It may be just for an arcade racing game, but that doesn't mean car fans aren't making it or fans of cars aren't playing it.

I don't think we should have an article be named and derived from only what a game UI says a car is or from what the website says it is, because these things can be vague or limited in interests of screen space. If either of these things are right on the money, then yes, but the times it isn't I hope who ever is writing the article is doing some research... some investigative confirmation of sorts.

I'd like to stick with what I pointed out 2 years ago, but if it's something that just can't be done, then I'd go with what the game is saying and what everyone else wants; even if it pains me to see it even be a year off.

On the note of investigative research, I've always tried to see if the game or website description is correct. If it isn't I'll go searching for clues to what it's meant to be with either performance stats or visual cues, something practically picking at minute differences for the R34, but I guess that's because I'm a stickler for details because NFS get me interested in cars.

I think if a game like Gran Turismo can feature the same car model four times, but say they're all different based on a few minute trim changes, that we can say five different types of the R34 have appeared based on how they're modelled (from manufacturer CAD data) and represented ingame.

On a side note, I'm sure some of the games feature the V-Spec alterations as the first bodykit or something. If it's in as a bodykit, then why not as the stock trim? I'm not making a point, I'm just wondering if it was something they did.

• 8/3/2015

Nah, arcade games can be also enjoyed by car enthusiasts, it's just they aren't meant to replicate stuff as accurate as possible.

Based on how the R34 GT-R has changed its appearance throughout the series, I can agree that there are five different R34 specifications in the NFS series. Gran Turismo has 5+ revisions of major Japanese sports cars such as the Mazda MX-5, although I really think that they have rather miniscule differences between each other. With the exception of the V-Spec II and Z-tune, I think the same of the R34 GT-R in the NFS series. Now, if the R34 was more like the C6 Corvette from which we have the base model, Z06, ZR1, GranSport and more, then I'd agree in a heartbeat.

However, as we both have different opinions that are unlikely to change, I suggest leaving the decision to the community. Not sure if now's the right time, considering the low feedback you received in your recent Need for Speed (2015) car threads and in your post about the Porsche 930.

• 8/3/2015
Should I add the details behind the reasoning for each car being on a certain article under trivia?
• 8/3/2015
That would be the best solution for now I think. The inaccuracies in each game would contradict with what the article introductions say.
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